Tips for using Magic Buckets

Hi,

I’m looking for tips or recommendations on using Magic Buckets for outdoor training, specifically for structured interval workouts.

During my workouts, I try to follow the recommended interval duration as closely as possible, whenever terrain and traffic allow it. When an interval starts, I can see how long I’ve been holding the interval, but I don’t understand what the time displayed underneath the interval duration represents, as it keeps changing during the effort.

I’m also seeing the following issue during recovery periods. For example, on rolling terrain I may briefly go above TP (about 10–20 W). This starts the interval countdown, but if I drop back below TP shortly afterwards, the recovery time becomes significantly longer than originally suggested.

Is this expected behaviour? My device is a Garmin Edge 830.

Thank you.

Why do you follow the interval duration? The beauty of magic buckets is that you do not have to. I usually aim for the proposed power target and go for as long and pause as long as it feels right for me. If I recover at a harder pace, low XSS will fill even faster. Sometimes I do some sprints for warmup to lower the targets.

Start whenever you can/want, stop when you can no more. Try to reach VO2max-state (very hard breathing/moaning, feels like drowning) for as long as possible. On a bad day, challenge level 5 is enough, on a normal day, I go for CL 7/8 and on a good day, I will try to push to lvl 10/breakthrough.

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Thanks, that’s pretty much how I’m using it too.

During the week I try to have at least one truly structured session – either an indoor workout or outdoor intervals with fixed duration and recovery. On other days, if I’m doing intervals, I focus on filling the buckets and structure the session based on how I feel and what the terrain allows.

That’s exactly why I’m interested in how Magic Buckets actually work and how the recovery time is calculated, as in my original question.

Classic answer: it depends :slight_smile: the closer you get to your goal, the more specific my intervals become. If you don’t have any event and just trying to get as fit as possible, do micro burst intervals but don’t neglect the longer VO2 intervals. Maybe incorporate them once or twice per month (just to prepare yourself to dig deep mentally)

Hi @LurkCz - good questions. I’ve tried to answer these types of questions the best I can in the documentation (like this), but it’s such a complex feature that I guess I haven’t covered every situation.

I think you’re referring to ‘Rec Dur’ (Recovery Duration) - this estimates the duration of your next recovery interval based on your current Challenge Level (CL) & Low XSS needed for the day. It continuously changes as you hold your intervals & also as you upgrade to higher CL’s.

Yes, this is how it should behave (not sure if it’s necessarily expected). When you stop an interval, the recovery power/time is calculated such that you efficiently fill your LOW bucket while also allowing your MPA to recover down to the next full Challenge Level. (e.g., if you stop your interval at 7.5, you’ll ‘recover’ back to CL 6.0, if you stop at CL 3.1, you’ll recover to CL 2.0, etc.)

Pedalling 4s over FTP starts the next interval (pedalling 4s below FTP starts a recovery). When you back off, Xert will again allow you to recover to the next lowest CL (which could likely longer than the previous displayed recovery time). In times where my ‘recovery’ interval is interrupted, I often base the start of my intervals once I’ve reached the next lowest CL.

If you keep easy pedaling after a recovery interval, you’ll drop into an ‘easy’ state - this is good for breaking your workout into “sets”, if that makes sense. I will often break my workout into smaller pieces when I have big High/Peak buckets to fill, aiming to fill 1/4 to 1/3 of the High/Peak Buckets at a time.

Hope this all helps/makes sense!

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Can I ask what the Target Power and Duration is based off? At the Moment I always see the same combinations (around 28s @ 255 or 20s @ 275) that of course changes within the workout. Is it coming from the focus duration or fitness signature and why would I not strictly follow the targets if I can?

I struggle a bit with a very data driven/centric platform encouraging users to go by feel.

Thanks a lot for the explanation, that really cleared things up and makes much more sense now.

I hadn’t paid much attention to CL before, because I didn’t realise it was so closely linked to the recovery time. I was mostly watching the recovery timer and where my power was relative to the target, but I wasn’t really tracking how my CL was changing during that period.

One more question about CL: what has the biggest impact on its level – is it mainly the percentage above the target power, or the duration for which I hold the interval at / above the target?

The Focus duration and interval target power are determined by the relative amounts of Low, High, & Peak XSS remaining in your buckets. XMB calculates a target that will fill those buckets efficiently and in the appropriate proportions. In other words, if you ride exactly at the target power, your High & Peak buckets should progress proportionally toward completion.

The Peak bucket has a relatively large influence on that target power. Try doing a couple of hard efforts near the beginning of your next ride to pre-fill some Peak XSS and watch what happens to the subsequent XMB target. You’ll likely see it shift downward and the suggested intervals become longer. :slightly_smiling_face:

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with following the targets closely if you enjoy doing that! The point is simply that you don’t have to (although, you still sorta need to follow along if you’re trying to fill the buckets, otherwise you’re just doing your own thing anyways :laughing: ).

I think this actually highlights an important part of Xert’s philosophy.

It’s very easy to overthink interval structure: Should I do 4×5 or 5×4? Should these be 105%, 110%, or 115%? How long should the recoveries be?

Xert’s approach is that there isn’t one magical combination of intervals that makes you fitter. What matters more broadly is accumulating the intended strain (XSS) across your Low, High, & Peak systems. Magic Buckets gives you a flexible way to achieve that without requiring you to follow a predetermined workout structure (permitting more flexibility in how you train).

Another way to think about it: it’s entirely possible to build excellent fitness without doing traditional workouts at all. Athletes who race or do hard group rides regularly demonstrate this all the time. It’s not the workout structure itself that creates fitness… it’s actually doing the work and accumulating the appropriate training strain.

XMB simply gives us a way to quantify that strain and guide you toward the desired dose of Low, High, and Peak XSS while still giving you considerable freedom in how you get there.

Challenge Level is based on HIE depletion , so both intensity and duration matter.

At the current interval target power, XMB calculates how much HIE you’d need to deplete to reach a Breakthrough, then divides that into 10 Challenge Levels. Roughly speaking:

  • CL1 = 10% of the way to a Breakthrough
  • CL5 = 50%
  • CL10 = Breakthrough

You can therefore “fast start” an interval by going harder than the target initially. That burns through HIE faster and gets you to the higher Challenge Levels sooner. You can then continue the training at those higher CLs, using the fatigue created by the hard start to make the subsequent efforts more effective (since XSS accumulates faster when HIE is depleted/MPA is lowered).

Just keep in mind that going substantially above the target may fill your High & Peak buckets in different proportions than XMB originally calculated, but that’s perfectly okay. XMB constantly interprets what you’ve done and recalculates its guidance on the fly.

You don’t have to fast-start at all. Hold the recommended effort for longer and watch what happens: as HIE continues to deplete, your Challenge Level will continue to rise.

So ultimately, how hard you ride determines how quickly CL rises; how long you keep going determines how far it rises. :smiley:

Clear as mud?

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Hi everyone,
I have a question: XMB always suggests short intervals (15-20 seconds) for my workouts, with typical values ​​of z5/z6.
I’m currently planning a granfondo event (the combination of training plan, available hours, and periodization results in “Mixed Rouleur - 6 Minute Power with 50% Specificity”). I also expect longer duration workouts, with target values ​​closer to the FTP, typical of the type of race chosen.
I understand how the buckets work, but I’m not sure how the XMB suggestions are compatible with the type of race chosen.
Obviously, “do as long as you can” is very difficult to achieve, with XMB targets much higher than the FTP. Is this just my error in judgment?

If you want to do longer VO2 intervals, you can ignore the wattage and ride eg 4x 5m VO2 max. At the end of your ride , you can fill your buckets with some sprints.

What i do from time to time is just do some sprints efforts at the beginning of the ride. Peak buckets will fill and magic buckets target power will be closer tot TP so you can do longer intervals :slight_smile:

Chiming in here, hope its okay @LurkCz :smiley:

Is there anything negative about just riding as hard as you can? Currently my estimated TP is around 215W. On non-endurance days when I have a goal for high/peak and I want to ride outside I just go 400-500W as long as I can to fill the buckets - but that usually means no more than maybe 5 intervals at around 30-45s total. Since I’m mostly concerned about base fitness I do not really care for a focus type, but is 5x45s @200%TP really enough to improve my overall fitness/HIE?

Repeating what’s been said already but here’s my take –

XMB is uniquely positioned to provide you with “the perfect workout every time”. :wink:
That means filling your buckets to the best of your ability on any particular day.
XMB also acts as a guardrail to curb your enthusiasm on LIT days when easy Z2 is the goal. But you have the option to include tempo/SS on a LIT day if that is your preference.

XMB provides dynamically structured workouts that adjust in real-time.
No need to tightly hold the target watts or durations for work or rest intervals.
Yes, you can do that when terrain/traffic allows, but as mentioned the point is you don’t have to if the course won’t allow it.
If you consistently drift off target the guidelines will change accordingly to steer you where you need to go.
Whenever you’re up for a challenge XMB also serves as your BT coach – egging you on to bust through to CL10. If you fail to get there, that’s fine too. Maximal efforts help keep your fitness signature dialed in whether you achieve a BT or not.

I also use XMB indoors as an aid with structured workouts from the Library.
Notice as you complete a structured workout the buckets are filled by the end, but at differemt rates.
If you don’t or can’t quite hit all targets you can switch to slope mode and rely on XMB to fill any remaining buckets. Follow XMB guidelines or mimic the intervals you had trouble with by performing them under your control.

XMB even supports straight block VO2max or Ronnestad sets should you choose to do them.
For VO2max straight blocks (1-4 minutes) ride whatever wattage range works best for you at the duration you’re targeting. The goal is reaching a physiological state and hanging there for the duration.

Here’s an experiment you can do to see this in action.

  1. Go to the Today page
  2. Select Edit Target XSS
  3. Select Focus/Specificity
  4. Enter 60 XSS, select Endurance/Pure, Override
    (Peak should say .1)

Now run EBC Android (or iOS Beta), Indoor, no workout selected, Start.
Notice the XMB interval target watts and default duration of ~1 minute.
Remember you can double or triple that duration when practical on your route.
That will reach VO2max territory for many users. Others can raise wattage a bit to ensure that physiological state. Rest easy between efforts then repeat.
You just performed a more traditional VO2max set. :smiley: Aka hill repeats.

Ronnestad sets (30/15s) will also get you there. Shoot for 13 intervals for a 10-minute Classic set. But again, it doesn’t need to be exact to meet the goal. Complete 2-3 sets as you’re able and you’re done for the day.

My main point is XMB is not just micro-intervals. Experiment and see for yourself.
The micro-interval default happens to be an efficient way to fill all three buckets at a uniform rate.
The default duration will range from <20 secs to a minute depending on Focus Duration target.
How the intervals are dispersed (recovery durations) determines that Difficulty level.
The lower the Challenge Level (CL) the less diamonds earned.
But you can double, triple or even quadruple the interval duration (if practical).
You’ll jack up CL, shorten the interval count, and increase the Difficulty rating.
You can alternately shorten recoveries if current fitness supports doing so.
Not up for doing that today? Stick with the defaults.
If you’re prefer to be told exactly what to do, you can follow the guidelines religiously.
Want to chart your own course? You can bend the rules to fit your goals. I.e. use the guidelines as a starting point and shape the workout yourself during the ride.
Bite-sized pieces (the default) versus big gulps. Your choice.
Front load or back load intervals or perform them in sets.

My other point is you can leverage XMB to never fail structured workouts indoors.
No need to complete all intervals at 100% under ERG control.
Either way – job well done. Mission accomplished.
Failure is truly not an option with XMB. :smiley:

Note: Circle back to the steps above and try different combinations of Focus Duration and Specificity for 60 XSS. Each one provides a different workout based on the ratio of Low/High/Peak strain. Specificity determines where you spend the most time at intensity.
A Pure HIT workout is harder than Polar. Outdoors you’ll likely end up in the middle (Mixed).

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Yes, you’ll continue to improve your fitness. :+1:
By filling the buckets in that fashion, you ARE targeting a specific Focus Duration (FD).
From what you describe (sprint intervals) it will be Road Sprinter (2-minute power).
What FD is shown under the activity details for those workouts?

For a broader range of stimulus, you’ll want to target various points along your power curve over time.
You can do that on-the-fly when following a XATA program by editing the XSS target from the Today page (see my post above) or change FD under Settings periodically.
E.g. Sprint TT for 2-4 weeks then switch to GC Specialist or Rouleur for another training block.
A XATA Base-Build-Peak program provides this function (phased, periodized progression) running in background over a 120-day period.
XATA Continuous is a DIY version (you control FD and block durations).

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I did the intervals after a gravel groupride, so the whole ride is indeed flagged as “Puncheur” :sweat_smile:

I rephrase my question: Basically they are sprint intervals, but is 5x45s really enough or is it comparable to doing like 10min FTP interval and hoping to get fitter with it. Since my buckets get filled with it, the system tells me: yes it is enough, but is that just an artifact on being on the extreme end of the spectrum?

I do not reeally care about my focus type, my priority is to stay below TP and build base fitness, but even for that (to my understanding) it’s necessary to go hard regulary - so I just fill the buckets as efficient as I could (hence 5x45s @200%TP) and be done with it.

My take on this is; 5x45s should be enough to cover your high/peak xss for the day since this is what magic bucket has prescribed. If you are on a program with positive improvement rate you should improve over time. The improvement of each low/high/peak training load will depend on your selected athlete type.

Depending on your current training load these 5x45s may be a relatively low total training load and you may have a blue training status the next day. If you are on an XATA program you will then be given a new high intensity activity the next day. What matters is how much xss you accumulate over a period of time.

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The Focus Duration rating of an activity (or segment) is a combination of strain watts and their disbursement (work versus recovery interval durations).

Here’s one of my favorite indoor HIT workouts Say It Ain’t So - 60 which has an overall rating of Breakaway Specialist.
.

If I zoom in on the interval sets >TP I get this –

and this –

and this –

Coupled with Focus Duration is a Difficulty Score and Specificity rating.
Say It Ain’t So has a Moderate 2 diamond rating. I.e. highest score of 51 was reached at end of third set.

Finally add Specificity rating. I.e. where you spent the most time at intensity; how closely you matched the Focus Duration.
This workout — and most outdoor activities — are going to be rated Mixed.

Whether you care about FD or not, every ride has one. :smiley:
As @elcomp mentions building fitness is a given as long as TL progresses over time.
Someone at one star status increasing their training load to 3 stars will improve even if all their rides are below TP. Better way though would be to include some high/peak work even if limited to a periodic fitness test to verify the improvements.

At some point my guess is you’ll tire of 5x45s on HIT days and want to try something else.
Following XMB guidelines as a primary motivator is working well for others as noted here.