# Physiologic reason for LTP formula?

LTP = TP - 2.5 x HIE. What is the physiologic reason behind this?

6 Likes

Bumping, so hopefully we get some answers. For me LTP doesnâ€™t represent anything relevant. It would be neat if it had some relationship with LT1.

1 Like

Iâ€™d be interested in the answer too

The equation works for my numbers too. Hereâ€™s the explanation provided in the support material. I donâ€™t understand the explanation.

â€śLTP represents the lowest possible value for Threshold Power when all Endurance Energy reserves have been depletedâ€ť

p.s. I tried to post a link to the Xert support material, but the forum wouldnâ€™t allow it, saying it was suspected spam. I also got 15 emails informing me of the reason the post was flagged.

(I believe this was the link you were looking to post? No such issues . Just a usual linkâ€¦)

LTP is something we had seen in the data very early on and it had become so useful as a training metric that we decided to incorporate it into the system more directly. It provided a way to encapsulate a way to identify how well an athlete would withstand longer events: the higher the LTP, the better the athlete would do later in rides. It made sense to train at LTP since it would mean youâ€™d do better at longer events, if these were part of your goals.

Physiologically, it made a lot of sense. LT1 is a value that aims to represent the onset of blood lactate accumulation which accumulates when glucose (i.e. glycogen) is used to generate power. This value is difficult to assign a value to, since the lactate levels increase continuously:

(From https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Representative-blood-lactate-curve-with-14-LTs-calculated-from-GXT-4-participant-9_fig1_326693764)
Hence physiologists have ongoing arguments on how to calculate it and what to do with it once you do.

If LT1 is low, it would mean youâ€™d run out of glycogen sooner than another athlete with a higher LT1 riding under the same conditions, assuming itâ€™s calculated the same way and represents the same for both.

We decided to use our method and call it LTP and use it as a indicator of long-term fitness and use it in training prescription. The feedback from this has been almost universally positive, some using it in place of their LT1 calculation. However, others that have not found it to coincide. We donâ€™t make claims that it does, only that it is a useful metric to monitor and train with, much better than traditional zones. In practice, LTP has been extremely useful since it captures the difference between those that are gifted with lots of top end power (Sprinters, Pursuiters, Puncheurs) with those that are gifted with great endurance (Climbers, Time Triallists, Triathletes). In the end, if youâ€™re an athlete with lots of high end power and you need to prepare for a longer event, if you follow traditional the Zone model based on %FTP, youâ€™ll likely be training above this value and may find yourself frequently tired as a result. Similarly, if youâ€™ve got a strong diesel engine and train by zones, you may not be putting sufficient strain to make your engine stronger if you follow the zone method. See Sweet Spot, Threshold and Polarized Training â€¦ By the Numbers â€“ Xert to understand how the differences play out.

Interestingly, there are other patterns in the signature that weâ€™ve discovered after looking deeper into the data. For example, this formula:

HIE*1000 / (PP - TP)

is roughly 30. Work it out for yourself and see where your number falls. What do you think this means?

The next iteration of the Xert model will likely see an improvement to how the lower intensity system works and will have a more continuous calculation, similar to how the body actually works.

Cheers.

10 Likes

based upon what is being said and the formula as LTP= TP-2.5*HIE then the best way to improve your durability for long endurance rides would be to decrease your HIE so that your LTP gets closer to your TP?

You need to reduce you HIE to get them closer together.

Mike

Do tell us!

I think this is the second or third reference Iâ€™ve seen to the next iteration of Xert (or Xert 2.0). Is that going to be a total rebuild, or just adding on top of and refining the original model?

1 Like

The question is where the 2.5 comes from?

good question and no idea how they came to that number of 2.5 it was given in the original post but it does seem to be true in my case.

iâ€™d like to point out the dimensions. the constant (2.5) has units of kilohertz.

Iâ€™m not sure but generally if you want to assign dimensions to a constant then that constant can generally be measured in nature as a fundamental physical constant? for example, we can measure the value of boltzmanâ€™s constant to a bunch of decimal places and it has units of J/Kâ€¦

2.5 kilohertz is probably not a fundamental physiological constant. but who knowsâ€¦ perhaps it is lolâ€¦ like the number of kJ we can regenerate per second or something like thatâ€¦

lol idk man the mathematics and theory behind critical power models is something I do not pretend to understand.

I donâ€™t followâ€¦. For the formula to make any sense. The 2.5 should be in a unit that converts kj to watts. Thereâ€™s some conversion tables to Kj to watt/hour but that doesnâ€™t apply here.

You can also use TP - HIE/400 where HIE is in Joules. 400 is in seconds. TP + HIE/400 is roughly VO2max.

3 Likes

Units of watts are joules per secondâ€¦ and units of hie are kilojoules.
Units of hertz are 1 over secondâ€¦

Watts=watts + ckJ
J/s = J/s + c
kJ
J/s = c * kJ
kJ/ks = c * kJ
1/ks = c
c=1/ks= 2.5 kilohertz

2 Likes

is that VO2 max formula correct? I am no math scholar but it seems more likely that VO2 max is TP+ (400/HIE)? or have I made some math error? to my reading HIE is a number between say 10 and 20 then that divided by 400 is a pretty small number.

1 Like

Yes I was thinking the same thing but didnâ€™t want to say anything

HIE x 1000 converts it from kilo Joules to Joules.

Okay now Iâ€™m totally confused, which is easily done. Where did this 1000 appear from? As its not in the equation above.

TP + HIE/400 is roughly VO2max.