Cannot hold power without ERG and question regarding TP W vs HR vs PRE

Training
1

Hello,

for most of my indoor training I used ERG, for example: I can do vo2 intervals 6x3m@250-270W.

Then I recently tried my first outdoor workout, which was supposed to be a TP workout with 6min intervals mostly @230w with 2 short spikes @250w. It was incredibly hard to hold the power up. The only way was able to keep power at the targets was to really exaggerate the different parts of the pedalstroke - i.e. sweeping the foot with force, pulling up with force and extend the leg forward with force before pushing down on the pedal again. If I’d just pedaled normally I couldnt hold the power because either my legs would give up after 30sec or power dropped way below 200W.

I though: maybe I’m a little bit spoiled by ERG and I just have to get the legs used to it, so I deactivated ERG mode. That was 2 weeks ago and I still have trouble holding anything above 200W steady for longer periods of time. I can still manage with the unnatural pedal-stroke, but with higher powers I get knee pain and also I dont feel quite right doin that. I can totally maintain steady power @lower watts with “normal” pedalling, so I dunno if it’s technique or where my problem lies.

The other question I have and maybe it’s related:

Trainerroad as well as Xert estimated my FTP/TP fresh at around 250W. At threshold power I usually have a HR of 165-170, even with lower FTP values HR always rised to around that number. At 250W my HR raises to that level now, too. Also Garmin and intervals.icu say that range to be my LTHR, too - so I would assume it’s at least in the ballpark.

Problem is (especially without ERG) PRE @TP feels more like I’m doing VO2max work, than riding at my threshold. I’m fairly certain I wouldnt hold 250W for 40-70min. Probably not even 20 without ERG. I recently did 2x20m@215W, which according to my PRE was maybe a smidge below what I would think is my FTP. With XERT the problem seems to be that all recent BT are Peak/High, so Internet said XERT leans to overestimate TP, which is fine. But what about LTHR then?

I have a feeling both questions are rooted at the same problem, I just dont have any clue what that could be, so… Any tipps/suggestions? :smiley:

I’m leaning to do a 20/30/40min test just for the fun of it and to get a number to work with, but I wouldnt know why I’m seemingly the only one that feels stronger in ERG, rather than the other way around :smiley:

Cheers from germany

Daniel

2

Post the power chart from that ride or make the actiivty Public under Details, Share and post the link.
What is your normal cadence range?
What is your max HR?

1 Like
3

Sure enough :slight_smile:

MaxHR: 185bpm

LTHR: 167bpm

Jan 17 - 2x20m @221w

grafik
grafik2225Ă—710 108 KB

Jan 31 - the outdoor workout:

grafik
grafik2225Ă—708 309 KB

Feb 10 - BT workout after which XERT said 250W TP

grafik
grafik2228Ă—705 121 KB

At around 250W my HR is roughly at the estimated LTHR in all three rides. But without ERG it just doesnt feel like threshold work :smiley:

4

Haven’t looked closely at the data but here’s my very high-level overview:

  • Indoors you started your threshold intervals 10 min into the ride and were done in about 1 hour
  • Outdoors you started the threshold efforts 1 hour into the ride.
  • You also hid the difficulty score in the thumbnails, it seems. Starting threshold intervals when you’re fresh is mentally a lot easier than starting your threshold intervals when you’re already at a higher difficulty score.

Did you eat anything on your outdoor ride? Riding at/near threshold will burn through carbs rather quickly. You’ll need to be eating lots to effectively sustain those efforts. I would not want to be doing threshold efforts without carbing up before/during the ride.

(Note: I say this as someone who has probably chronically under-fuelled during rides and someone who intends to focus more on fueling in-ride this year)

1 Like
5

I hid difficulty because I thought it made HR less readable. Difficulty for the first (indoor ERG) started at 90 at the second interval and peaked at 143 right at the end. Outdoor and indoor w/o ERG peaked at mid to high 80s and highest also with ending the last interval. I have to admit that difficulty seems a bit abstract to me so I’ll dive into that again now :smiley:

I did eat during that outdoor ride, but I never really tested how much would be most efficient. I think i did a gel ~45min in the ride, one right before starting the intervals while pausing and one right in die middle of the intervals (with 25g carbs per gel) - afair I had carbs in the bottles as well and drank… maybe another 30-40g before starting the intervals. Seems a bit low in hindsight, but for comparison I did eat one gel between the 2x20min and nothing between the ERG-less session this tuesday.

It really bugs me that 210-220w feel reasonably hard, but doable somehow. On the other hand 250w, which is estimated by two different algorithms as FPT/TP and overlap with LTHR just a bit too nicely somehow feel absurdly hard/VO2max hard. And even then only when going ERG or forcing myself weirdly through the pedalstroke.

6

Per me è la stessa cosa, con l’home trainer in modalità auto riesco a mantenere i wattaggi richiesti con meno sforzo percepito rispetto alla pedalata libera. In modalità AUTO per me è “sufficiente” spingere sui pedali e il trainer si regola da solo mantenendo il target dei watt precisi. Non c’è neanche bisogno di controllare i watt, bisogna “solo” spingere e soffrire!. Con la pedalata libera devo regolare ogni singola pedalata e guardare il numero dei watt per mantenere l’esercizio corretto: lo avverto come uno stress aggiuntivo. Purtroppo la cosa si verifica anche con la bici su strada quindi ho dovuto uscire dalla confort zone (si fa per dire) e fare più allenamenti in modalità SLOPE e sforzarmi di impegnarmi di più.

7

grafik

I decided to build a custom workout with 3x10min what Xert thinks my TP is and lets say… I had a nice productive VO2-Max workout :face_with_spiral_eyes:

5min into the first interval I had to pause for a minute and completed the other 4min afterwards. I set the trainer to ERG mode and started the second interval only to have to make a pause after 4min this time. I tried the second half but couldnt do it and lowered the resistance. The third interval I did at roughly what I think my TP is and RPE felt like I’m in the ballpark, even though I was tired by then and really looked forward to the end of the workout by now :smiley:

What else I took from that workout:

Maybe I should have a closer look at my HR, in all intervals my HR rose way above LTHR, even in the last one (I was cooked by then though). Averages were not as high in all three intervals though and I think I got a skewed understanding of where my HR goes for a given power, exactly because I made the mistake to only look at said averages.

What remains is: I still have problems holding high powers without ERG, despite fatiguing it felt easier and better in ERG. I also feel like the problem is fatiguing muscles in leg and hip because of the unnatural movement more than the effort itself. Maybe it really is just a problem of getting used to it, but then again: my knee shouldnt hurt while pedalling :smiley: I incorporated pedaling drills at the end of the workout and will continue to in the upcoming workouts and see if it gets better…

One additional question popped up while looking at the analysis:

I was really close to failure after the first minutes of the first two intervals, my MPA only dropped by 10% though - is that correct? Shouldnt it drop way more for an effort like that? Also despite being really on the edge/above TP most of the time, I only collected low XSS, but almost no HIE.