MyWhoosh

[brianrhamilton]

I probably would use the Xert EBC app on iOS (my iPhone) IF it supported landscape orientation. I don’t think I’ve ever actually done anything more than play with the current Xert EBC workout player because I just can’t do workouts only using a phone display - it’s just too small. My Apple TV 4K (1st gen of the 4K models, model #MQD22) uses an old 47” TV on the wall - fantastic for Zwift workouts which use the entire display. Most likely I would use the Xert EBC workout player for non-endurance days, especially for SMART workouts where I think the “smart” part matters most and the Zwift (or MyWhoosh) equivalent just doesn’t measure up. I mirror my phone to ATV for this use case so portrait orientation only is really annoying.

I haven’t tried using my Garmin 540 to train indoors, only outdoors using the Magic Buckets app. The display is small but the app makes very good use of it with a clean legible layout and good use of colors as well. That guy needs to do the display for the iOS Xert EBC workout player! Anyway, I mostly only do endurance workouts outdoors since I’m almost always on my MTB so any workout with more structured intervals just aren’t possible. I’ll just do simple hill repeats sometimes if I want to do intervals outdoors.

Indoors, with Zwift on ATV, I do use the Zwift companion app app but only for the navigation control, social stuff (chats, thumbs), etc., NOT the BT bridge feature. In fact, I have that (Device Connection) entirely disabled in the Zwift companion app. I use the Remote app on my phone in place of the ATV remote device. The ATV turns on the TV via HDMI ARC. I also have a few BT power outlets with fans set up and those have their own phone app remote so I can start 1 or both fans after I’m warmed up without pausing or getting off the bike.

Regarding the Bluetooth connections, I just connect everything directly to the ATV (no bridges). Everything in my case is trainer (old Tacx Vortex Smart that will likely get replaced very soon), Wahoo TICKR HRM, and old Apple AirPods (to stream podcasts which automatically mix with in-game sound perfectly). The only time I’ve had any trouble at all with these 3 simultaneous BT connections is after ATV software updates a few times a few years ago. I use the trainer Control and Power but I think I’ve also used my Stages PM power with Zwift and it worked fine as well with no bridge necessary. I do have my ATV on a wired ethernet connection but my phone is obviously on wifi. Last time I messed with the Apple remote device while Zwifting, it worked just fine with all the other BT connections active (that remote uses BT as well). A few years ago I recall some trouble with Zwift and ATV BT connections but it was all fixed with subsequent updates (Zwift and/or tvOS updates). I also remember seeing the Zwift ATV app having trouble losing BT data capture (HRM only maybe?) when backgrounded, but it was restored properly once in the foreground again. I haven’t done a Zwift workout for a while but will soon and will try to remember to check this again. Otherwise it’s just a rock solid setup, no drops at all with any of the BT connections.

I tried the MyWhoosh companion app but didn’t see the need for it because the MyWhoosh ATV app has everything I need. I also had trouble with the MyWhoosh companion app making it’s “Live” connection to the MyWhoosh ATV app session anyway (likely a network configuration issue with my network setup). Since all my BT connections are directly to the ATV and the MyWhoosh ATV app has useable navigation and chat menu in the app, I really have no need for the MyWhoosh companion app. I didn’t have to mess with any network settings to get the MyWhoosh ATV app to work in the foreground, but maybe there’s something I could change that would help with the backgrounding problem and companion app connection. Since I don’t really care about those things I haven’t messed around more yet.

Maybe try not using any of the companion app bridge stuff, and even disable it completely to see if that solves your BT troubles. All my BT devices automatically connect directly to the ATV as soon as I turn it on (using the phone Remote app) and either app, Zwift or MyWhoosh, automatically connect all the BT devices each time I open the app (don’t have to click on anything at all). The only time I sometimes have to manually choose a BT device at all is if someone else used the trainer or ATV with their HRM or AirPods right before I jump on the trainer. The multi-user “problem” could easily be solved if all the app developers used the User space ATV already provides for instead of having user profiles within each app.

[ulty (Brent)]

I don’t know if this would work for you, but you can mirror or screen cast from a laptop computer running the Xert player on the web to the ATV to get the full screen gauges, stats, and interval map / timeline.

So: Xert EBC app running on phone, connected to the Xert player in the website on a computer, casting to Apple TV. (Since from what I understand, ATV doesn’t have an integrated web browser.)

[brianrhamilton]

Yes, I’ve done that in the past and it does work. Just WAY too much hassle to be worthwhile IMO.

[brianrhamilton]

More MyWhoosh troubles in case anyone running the MyWhoosh ATV app is interested. So today I found that it’s not only the backgrounding of the MyWhoosh app that causes headaches. At least there is a workaround for that (don’t background the app).

The other problem is that if a workout (custom workout imported from exported Xert Zwift workout, ZWO file) finishes naturally (you don’t manually End Workout in MyWhoosh), the app screws up the focus of your interaction. When the workout is done, a window pops up for you to Upload your workout to MyWhoosh (and other connected apps like Strava and Xert) but you cannot click on the Upload button because the focus is still tied to the main MyWhoosh screen that is now in the background. If you terminate the MyWhoosh app and restart, then go to select a Workout again, you’ll get the same pop-up allowing you to save your workout. Also, if you manually stop your workout early using the MyWhoosh Menu (End Workout, Stop Ride, whatever) the focus is not lost and you can rename and Upload your ride as expected.

Since I’m already going thru the hassle of exporting the Zwift workout from Xert, importing it into MyWhoosh Workout Editor, and manually setting the FTP for the workout, I’ll just add a 5 minute block at the end of each workout to give me time to manually End Ride as a workaround.

So, lots of hassles with MyWhoosh but it seems to work OK otherwise. Graphics quality on ATV is noticeably lower than Zwift but I also haven’t tried to push those settings at all yet - just left them on MyWhoosh defaults (which it set up when I first ran it and said were optimal).

MyWhoosh is quite a bit behind Zwift in general and has some of the same problems, at least on ATV, that Zwift had a few years ago that were finally resolved with software updates. It’s always a software problem!

[brianrhamilton]

So it looks like most of the issues I pointed out above have been fixed in the latest MyWhoosh and MyWhoosh Link updates, at least for iOS. There are still bugs but not things that cause any serious problems or data loss.

I gave up on MyWhoosh though because it doesn’t support any way to control the trainer resistance with anything but the trainer power meter. I misunderstood what the Primary and Secondary Power connections are for. Apparently the primary is for trainer control and the secondary is for validation of the first with an extra power meter for racing. No matter what combination I tried using, the control was screwed up unless I use the trainer power meter for controlling resistance. Had to go back to using Zwift because at least it works as you’d expect in this regard.

Unfortunately Zwift doesn’t support SMART workouts and still can’t do curved ramps. The latter makes very challenging workouts (like Hardness Tests, for example) impossible without disabling ERG. You’ll hit the spiral of death trying to follow a straight line target power that should be a quick reducing curve per Xert.

Of course Xert EBC functions great with Xert workouts BUT it’s essentially unusable unless you have 20-10 vision or a ginormous phone. Mirror it to Apple TV and you get portrait display using the middle third of your TV - makes it usable, but so sad.

Why doesn’t Xert EBC support Landscape mode yet???

[ManofSteele (Scott Steele)]

I hear ya! Landscape mode support is on our TO DO list for the next iOS update!

[xertedbrain (Armando Mastracci)]

Not sure landscape mode will be that much better anyways since you still have you find space for the same information on the screen. Fonts won’t necessarily be bigger. Have you tried EBC on an iPad?

Perhaps you can upload an image of the iOS screen and indicate what information you have trouble reading that you find important to see.

[brianrhamilton]

Landscape WILL be MUCH better in the use case I described because it will fill the entire TV display instead of only the middle third! This is what you get when mirroring the Xert EBC app in the current Portrait mode. Note the (crappy) photo is cropped at the bezel of the TV screen all the way around. Landscape mode would fill the entire TV screen.

Of course, the best (IMO) use of all that “extra” display real estate would be to ADD information (like showing all the details for each interval (much like on Zwift, except not omitting the actual power numbers on ramps). This would mean small fonts and less legibility on a small (phone) display.

I think Landscape would mostly be used by those mirroring to a larger display indoors and not riding outdoors anyway. So I understand the limited user interest here but I also understand this isn’t a huge job and suspect you are noticing an increase in ATV user base (or maybe just the desire to mirror for a larger display indoors?) already (survey results).

Think of Landscape for Xert EBC as a really cool HUD (heads-up-display)!

PS. I do have an old iPad, but it’s VERY old - I suspect too old to run Xert EBC. Besides, I don’t have any interest in an extra loose device thrown into the mix any more than I have interest in using a Windows PC or Mac. Apple TV with large display and phone for BT bridge and remote control is the hot ticket these days. It’s what all the cool kids are using…

[ridgerider2]

@brianrhamilton

Of course Xert EBC functions great with Xert workouts BUT it’s essentially unusable unless you have 20-10 vision or a ginormous phone. Mirror it to Apple TV and you get portrait display using the middle third of your TV - makes it usable, but so sad.

Does this mean you would cast EBC to ATV in landscape mode on days when you want to ride SMART workouts as designed?
I’m used to beeps on EBC iOS so I don’t rely on viewing the app much on a HIT day or at all on LIT days.
I agree the small type is hard to read but I primarily glance at the rainbow gauge and wait for the beeps. Occasionally I swipe left to view the power chart but only to check on progress and what’s left to do. Otherwise, I swipe back to the gauge and glance at watts now and then.
Of course, I have the luxury of watching the power chart and enlarged rainbow gauge on the Session Player at the same time. That won’t ever work on ATV so I get your point.
I gather from your description you don’t have a trainer desk in front of you to place stuff on.
Mine can get a bit crowded.

Hopefully landscape mode and larger fonts in next iOS version will meet your needs.
I don’t think lots of users will run it that way, but it will be there for those who want to.
In the meantime, have you considered sourcing a used or refurbished Android phone and cast that version of EBC to your ATV in portrait or landscape mode?
The Android version has few too-small text. The default page views in portrait mode will likely meet your expectations without casting. You can also zoom in/out on the power chart plus you’ll have XMB to play with while waiting for those features on iOS.

[brianrhamilton]

@ridgerider2

Does this mean you would cast EBC to ATV in landscape mode on days when you want to ride SMART workouts as designed?

Initially that’s what I’d do but I suppose it would really depend on how well it all worked and looked. Zwift makes great use of the full display but t’s also getting too expensive, at least for my more limited use. It would be easier to justify the extra cost of Zwift if I raced and did some of the Challenges, Group Rides, Events, Races, etc. I mostly just use it for a very legible HUD with nice sound cues and visual distractions.

My setup is really clean. No clutter at all - no cords, no desks, no mice, nothing to trip over or set up other than my bike since the trainer is a shared resource. Apple TV is stuck to the wall just below the TV so even those cords are out of the way and mostly hidden. I use my iPhone for a remote to control everything - ATV (which also controls the TV via ARC), podcasts, smart plugs for the trainer and lots of fans (in windows, out of the way). I stick my phone to my Garmin mount using the MagSafe magnet and don’t have any need for the Zwift Click controllers so they’re not even on my bike. Besides listening to a podcast, I’ll also sometimes play simple word games on my phone if the workout allows. ATV mixes all the sound from Zwit, podcast, game, etc. perfectly.

Landscape mode in Xert EBC could draw more users in if Xert ventured into the social part just a little by adding a message pane (like Zwift has), just for Xert users to socialize while on the trainer. The options are endless, especially with a full-blown tvOS app. A full-blown tvOS app might be able to act as a transparent overlay on top of other apps like the session player? I really don’t know what is possible on tVOS. Anyway, I definitely understand that would be a rather large project compared to just adding basic Landscape Mode support to the Xert EBC app.

Basic Landscape Mode for the Xert EBC could simply be a really nice looking HUD that makes use of the entire display area. List of intervals on one side (including ramp power numbers Zwift lacks), gauges in the middle (rainbow, digital, analog, whatever), power and HR graphs running along the bottom, visual display of entire workout intervals (like in Xert Workout Designer or also like Zwift Companion app) across the top, messages or something else on the right. Something like that. Essentially useless without mirroring to a much larger display, but that’s sort of the whole point - having a MUCH larger display.

I believe there are more people interested in a large display than you might think, although many don’t know it yet. I tried the laptop thing for a while when I first started but once you go to a big display (and admittedly also all the convenience ATV brings), there’s just no going back.

[brianrhamilton]

@ridgerider2

In the meantime, have you considered sourcing a used or refurbished Android phone and cast that version of EBC to your ATV in portrait or landscape mode?

So the Android version of Xert EBC DOES have support for Landscape Mode?

[ridgerider2]

Portrait –

Landscape – (Reported bug prevents you from using this currently.)

Bonus XMB – (This does work in portrait or landscape.)

Or XMB on EBC Android cast to ATV – (Not that I’d recommend doing that. )

[brianrhamilton]

Well that’s just not fair!

I’d like to see a combination of the XMB display and the EBC in Landscape. I like seeing the entire workout in a colorful graph but I also like XMB analog style gauge. In Landscape mode on a decent size TV there’s room for everything!

[xertedbrain (Armando Mastracci)]

There are a boat load of inexpensive Androids out there. I’ve been testing this out myself as my head unit that I use for Magic Buckets both indoors and outside.

You can then look to stream to your TV with something like this. Note I have not tested this myself but imagine all the pieces should be there to do what @ridgerider2 is showing. You may want to do some more research first.

[brianrhamilton]

The Apple eco-system just works though - like good appliances should. I used to totally be into playing with all sorts of gadgets but I just don’t have the extra time and energy any more. Apple TV makes all this stuff so clean and simple for the end-user. It’s a fact that even TV streaming types are finally accepting as they are increasingly dumping their NVIDIA Shield Android devices for Apple TV. A “dongle” is something that should have never been invented.

[xertedbrain (Armando Mastracci)]

@brianrhamilton

The Apple eco-system just works though - like good appliances should. I used to totally be into playing with all sorts of gadgets but I just don’t have the extra time and energy any more. Apple TV makes all this stuff so clean and simple for the end-user.

Yes. But in this case you pay the price of vendor lock-in. Apple doesn’t want interoperability with other devices so you’re stuck just buying from them .. at a hefty premium.

It’s a fact that even TV streaming types are finally accepting as they are increasingly dumping their NVIDIA Shield Android devices for Apple TV. A “dongle” is something that should have never been invented.

Interoperability makes things a lot less expensive at the price of complexity.

Garmin is pursuing a similar business strategy with their head-units and watches. They all work well together but generally don’t play well when you want to use your Garmin with a product from another vendor. They can keep their prices buoyant. Switching off their platform makes life difficult for people since they get used to how things work together.

Zwift too with the bike and cog. Intended only to work in Zwift forcing other vendors to find hacks around it.

Good for users? I guess it all depends on your perspective.

[brianrhamilton]

@xertedbrain

Yes. But in this case you pay the price of vendor lock-in. Apple doesn’t want interoperability with other devices so you’re stuck just buying from them .. at a hefty premium.

I don’t think they don’t want interoperability with other devices. I think they want to preserve the user experience because I think they know that’s what keeps people coming back long term.

What interoperability do you think is missing?

The Apple TV device is about the same price as the 2 generic products you linked and arguably does a lot more. Maybe they are more expensive outside of the US?

Another part of the cost equation is how long a device is useful. Apple products have been supported with updates considerably longer term than most competitors.

Yeah from what I’ve read about the Zwift controller evolution, Zwift did exactly that. Apparently the controllers were originally not using encrypted communications but were updated to add it solely to reduce competition. That’s lame.

[xertedbrain (Armando Mastracci)]

@brianrhamilton

What interoperability do you think is missing?

You can only broadcast to AppleTV from other Apple products. You can’t FaceTime without using Apple products. List goes on and on for Apple. That’s vendor lock-in by limiting interoperability.

[IanJackson]

@brianrhamilton MyWhoosh user here. I have 4 ways I use Xert:

1. MyWhoosh app on my Iphone and cast it to my TV. Works great with full control of Trainer (ERG On/Off, % difficulty +/- button. Workouts appear in MyWhoosh calendar each day.

2. EBC on my iphone (only) in portrait mode. I’ll usually have Tv on for sport or You Tube etc if doing this.

3. EBC on my iphone cast to TV - doesn’t look great in portrait

4. EBC on iphone but with Session Player running on a second phone (or laptop) cast to TV. See images below which also includes a Garmin Edge 130 for MPA monitoring which I was trying out indoors. I’ll need a better Garmin for XMB (I ride outdoors with a Wahoo), or an Android Phone, or it gets incorporated into EBC or the Session Player which would be really cool.

[brianrhamilton]

I should have asked about what is missing that is relevant to doing workouts with Xert and ATV but I thought that was sort of implied.

I’ve never actually used Facetime. Like never, ever.

I have tried using various “casting” protocols on other products and they just failed, a lot, especially anything involving Windows. Apple AirPlay just works for me every single time on any device I’ve tried it on and that includes many TVs (since Apple doesn’t make TVs).

So you’re saying other devices don’t support Apple AirPlay? I’m pretty certain they “could” but choose not to, for whatever reason. One could argue that those devices are the ones limiting operability, not Apple.

Apple AirPlay works REALLY well.