XATA training status indicators behavior

Hmmm… if I setup Continuous for a Tired day with 2 hours available I get a number of viable endurance workouts ~120 XSS on the recommended list.
Why is Filter active in your screenshot? (red)

As for tomorrow’s workouts go to Planner and click [+] and you’ll see HIT recommendations since calculated form 24 hours from current time view is v. fresh (green arrow on gauge).

From XATA help article:

NOTE: A second arrow (small triangle) represents where you will be 24 hours from now and is also colour-coded with your projected training status at that time. If you have a planned activity in the Fitness Planner within the next 24 hours, the triangle may point to the right of the main needle as it is accounted for in the calculation.

What are your cycling goals?
“Competitive” simply refers to your current TL value. I.e. what Xert considers as the range necessary to compete at whatever class level you’re capable of (or compete against yourself).
Elites and Pros ride up to double that which doesn’t mean you can simply raise TL and turn Pro. :smiley:

0 Stars – Untrained: Training Load below 25
1 Star – Recreational: Training Load between 25 & 50
2 Stars – Trained: Training Load between 50 & 75
3 Stars – Competitive: Training Load between 75 & 110
4 Stars – Elite: Training Load between 110 & 150
5 Stars – Pro Level: Training Load above 150

Table from: Training Status and Form – Xert

Because I clicked on “Workouts” - see it highlighted.

Yes, did this and it still showed only Mixed Climber workouts… And continues to do the same (at 1pm EST here).


No filter applied. And once again - why does it consider me fresh??? My legs are quite tired after doing this Iron Man 90 last night, just ~16 hours ago… Since I was already tired (Xert did NOT give me any real rest days recently), the workout was hard on legs, had to drop power ~3-5% at the second half of it.
If I look at my planner, it will ALWAYS show me fresh next day, but it may change colors for the past days, so I find it very unreliable.
Here is the start of my week:

And this was happening every day for the last month while I was testing it.
But now, if I go to the previous week, it all of a sudden changed color from red/blue to red/orange:

Compare to the screenshot taken last Wednesday:

Notice the difference.

I posted this at the beginning, I believe - I want to maintain, maybe (very) slowly improve my fitness. I am closer to my 6th decade and only started bike training in the last 3 years. I do not plan to race. I want to have fun - ride in Zwift efficiently (and I already can, so I am good with the level I have). Basically - get closer to 50th percentile in training to people in my age group.

Xert is NOT helping here. It tries to push me over the edge with difficult workouts, much larger volume (compared to my successful self-coaching in the last 2 years) and strange workout targets.

Xert tendency to invent its own terms doing it significant disfavor.

As I said - I was self-coaching before. I did NOT do any structured training - mostly free rides with pre-planned effort. Xert saw my historical TL and made very incorrect conclusions.

Hey @dgcom thanks for your feedback.

Looks like you’re being recommended 120 | 4.0 | 0.2 XSS, which corresponds to Mixed Climber workouts. If you don’t feel like riding hard today, then you could consider picking an endurance ride or just free-riding easy and review the recommendations tomorrow - that’s one perk of the Adaptive Training Advisor.

Looks like you have your Athlete Type set to 20 min power, so you’re going to get loads of threshold-ish & climber focused rides recommended. This is because your 20 min power is almost exclusively powered by your low-intensity (threshold) system - your Peak Power and HIE don’t have much influence on your 20 min power. You can experiment with selecting a lower Focus type (for an extreme example, switch to road sprinter) and see how that impacts the recommended workouts. You’ll likely see more polarization with lower focus durations - and they still increase your 20 min power too! I’ve been following a Mixed Pursuiter plan (Forecast AI) and am still seeing increases in my Threshold Power (and by extension, 20 min power) as a result.

Xert uses 3-dimensional fatigue. If your Low form is too low to train, you’ll see red stars. If your High or Peak form are too low, then you’ll be yellow star status. How much High & Peak XSS you can tolerate depends on your specific training loads and your selected Athlete Type. Again, a 20 min focus is going to give you relatively small doses of High/Peak XSS quite frequently since they aren’t putting enough strain on your HIE or Peak Power systems to need several days of recovery. A fun experiment for you to try would be to put a Road Sprinter workout into your planner and notice how long you’ll be yellow status afterwards, compared to a Sprint Time-Trialist or Climber workout.

You can also adjust the XSS per Hour preference if you feel the workouts are too challenging. This setting impacts how much High/Peak XSS can be packed into your available time. Some users like to ride harder than others!

Your past training status changing based on your Recovery Demands is intentional. You can make a change and see how adjusting it impacts the data you’ve already uploaded (or re-forecast your upcoming training if you’re using a forecast AI plan).

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Thank you for your response, Scott.

This was today… I questioned recommendation yesterday - it was recommending endurance workout but suggested Mixed Climber:
image

Today recommendation is in sync between left and right parts of the screen, but that is now out of sync with bottom part, which still says Endurance:

I changed that couple of days ago from Rouleur (6 min) thinking it would give me more of actual endurance workouts, but XATA insists on significant over-threshold training - for no real reason.
How Sprint Time-Triallist type causes workouts for climbers? Since when climbers climb with 150% TP? As you said - to train for longer periods with power, people benefit with endurance - under threshold, preferably larger volume of Z2. BTW, Armando in that podcast was actually saying the same - volume at lower power is better. So I really question XATA choice of NOT giving me rest and overloading me with anaerobic intervals!

Look - I can play games with Xert forever. Yes, it is fun, interesting algorithm but what does it have to do with the good plan for structured training?

Yes, these workouts do not strain cardio, they strain your mussels quite a lot and they will get tired - sometimes more than your cardio/aerobic system.

This is a real problem. Xert tries to push people over the edge a lot (I read many posts here on this topic). But then you start looking at professopnal advice and the recommendation is to do high volume of Z2 with small number of weeks of anaerobic work per year. And Xert was telling me to do that for almost a month non-stop.
I asked at one point - what Olympic medalist or TdF winner use Xert? Haven’t found any so far. But when you listen to Pogacar interview to Dr. Attia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yjbJJBjHU) there is a very different (compared to Xert) approach…

It is unfortunate, that Xert recommendation engine “XATA” is so unreliable and pushy. This “Your past training status changing based on your Recovery Demands is intentional.” makes planner exceptionally useless - you can’t rely on it to reflect your actual freshness and be a real calendar - system of record. Ideally, it should show event every time setting has changed and only adjust things from there.

I tried Xert several times over the last 3 years. As I said - lots of improvements, it may serve as good analytic tool (although the same data can be tracked in other tools). But XATA seems to be still very broken.
I may decide to test forecast AI plans next, not sure when - I need training and some races to do and Xert is not helping.

I think this is because you are in ‘continuous’ improvement with a short focus. Maybe Xert could do a better job at onboarding new users (I’ve been a user for too long to know) eg you should do a base build peak cycle (and repeat) or event based plan if you’re after periodisation - continuous just doesn’t do that and if you have continuous with short focus it’s like a never ending build / peak phase

More broadly, if your view is that you should do 95% z2 you are probably right that you don’t need Xert (or any other training platform). Just find a way to track volume (hours… TSS) and increase it over time riding z2. That said, for people training at ‘non pro’ volumes that is likely sub optimal (leading to lower performance capability) as you’ll see from nearly every coach and platform, and which you’ll figure out yourself with experience. Intensity provides the biggest bang for your buck but there is a limit to what you can do and still recover from… at 6 hours a week you can probably recover well from a (very) high percentage of intensity, but it’s different at 20 hours plus which is where the 80 20 or 90 10 comes from…

Xert tries to lead you there and manage fatigue with some unique / innovative approaches. Is it perfect? Probably not. But it’s better than simple TSS. And the approach to HIT workouts (due to ability to model performance above TP) is better than any other IMO

Yeah, this would probably be a much better approach, at least this is in line how other, successful platforms do - they start with base, lower volume, then increase load, then drop again and repeat. Forecast AI sort of tries to do that, but it is still higher load from the get go. This seems to be happening because Xert analyzes training history and is set up to match the previous load without introduccing its own base cycle.

Yeah, I do exactly that for the last 2 years using Intervals!
I might still use Xert for analytics (or build same data on Intervals).

I did an experiment yesterday - Xert wanted me to do “SMART - Shut Up and Ride” workout which calls for XSS: 125 ( 120 | 4.8 | 0.3 ) in 1rr 36 min.
Zwift just came out with 5 new routes and since I was tired, I decided to ride the easiest one, doing what I usually do - Z1/Z2 on flat, Z3/Z4 on (short) climbs and max effort on sprints.
I was easily able to get this for this ride: XSS: 68 ( 62 | 4.0 | 2.1 ) in 1hr 10 min (when I free ride the route, I complete it and then continue riding until I think I had enough). I could have easily done more low power, but remember - I considered this a recovery ride :slight_smile:

Edit: Forgot to add - it should be relatively easy (from technical point of view) to create an app, which would dynamically capture Xert’s “magic buckets” on the phone or computer, not just Garmin… This could be a real value for Zwift/Rouvy/etc. riders. Very surprised that Xert didn’t make it available right away.

And you can use Intervals to track W’bal in very similar way as MPA, for example:

:slight_smile:

Also - these 0 power gaps in the chart - I never do this, but this time had to stop for some photo opportunities :rofl:

Question. Why did you try Xert again? What are you not getting from your present solution?

Go ahead and push the Recovery Demands (RD) slider to the right until you see yellow/tired on the Planner where you expect to see it based on how you’re feeling.
While the slider isn’t incremented by numbers there are 10 positions left and right from center.
Try a couple clicks to the right of center, Save, then refresh the Planner view and repeat until you feel it’s dialed in.
The sliders are Xert’s way of tweaking your position on the bell curve and dialing in what works better for you. They can be adjusted over time as your fitness changes. For example, I slid RD to the right during my first XFAI plan and am now back to the middle default.
I’m currently at three stars like you, training in Continuous mode with Puncheur for Focus at Mod-1 ramp rate. I’m getting plenty of 3-diamond HIT days and handling them well. What you would likely call a ton I find quite feasible to do day after day until endurance kicks in from several HITs in a row or an especially hard workout.
Soon I’ll switch to Base-Build-Peak or an XFAI plan to peak in summer.

As mentioned, Continuous ATP is similar to Build phase and that means less LIT, more HIT.
The assumption is you have already established a base and want to build on it and adjust it to meet your needs whether by changing Focus or ramp rate or a combination. You could implement more LIT by tweaking the settings and making distinct choices but you’re looking more for “a plan” to follow, not leading the charge.

Now that I understand where you’re coming from (3 years is new to cycling) and where you want to go, I’m going to suggest you try setting an XFAI Goal and note the differences in a forecast versus Continuous ATP. For example, set a goal to increase Climbing power by a few watts over say a 60-day period or more. You can always switch back to Continuous but I think you’ll get more out of a forecast since you can look ahead to see how it works. You can also tweak settings and recast and see what changes. I good place to do that is on the forecast chart where you can zoom in/out to view details along with weekly TL changes and distribution of low/high/peak over the course of the forecast.

XFAI_Goal4minPower9wks

Continuous TP includes a strong element of self-coaching while XFAI will provide more of the structure I think you want, including phased periodization. You also get that with XATA Base-Build-Peak but I hesitate to direct you there if your hours are restricted and you don’t have the ability to steadily increase TL between now and a target event date (real or imaginary).
Note: Settings such as Availability are retained regardless of program type.

Since you’re a relative novice to cycling your experience is going to be a lot different from those of us with many years of cycling under our belt. Even though I haven’t competed in decades the status stars labeling did make sense to me along with Athlete Types (like intervals.icu)
As for our criticism of old-school conventions versus Xert’s adaptive approach, take that with a grain of salt. Some of us are a bit jaded with the old ways. Many here have been there, done that and read those books including first editions when they were the only editions available. If I remember correctly one of those books came with a CD tucked inside the back cover or was it a floppy disk? :slight_smile:

The major benefit to me is the flexibility inherent in Xert. Start a progression, build a plan, tweak it, steer your boat in the direction you want to go, switch plans, choose alternate workouts, flip from indoors to outdoors on a whim, experiment, dial it up or down, and essentially learn to self-coach in a manner that works best for you.
That may not be the ideal environment for those new to the sport who are likely more interested in being told what to do. While you can setup Xert to do that, it shines when you’re in control.

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Nicely generated graphic!!!

It would be a mistake to put someone in a base phase when they already have fitness built up and their target date is a month or two away, for example If you have something further out, then you can hold back on high and peak energy systems training since they respond quicker to training.

I think onboarding a new user to help them understand the training process would be useful to ease people into what’s being prescribed and why. They could better appreciate the highly individualized, highly optimized plans compared to something simple and easy to use and follow. While we could do that, it’s not what we’ve attempted to accomplish. Then again, there are plenty of free tools and software that’ll give you a simple training plan that will likely work pretty well so likely not a real significant market there. Indeed, if all you want to do is improve your FTP, you really don’t need any overly sophisticated. It’s just ride and ride more. Track hours, distance or TSS. Blunt instruments but good enough.

It’s being worked on and is not “easy” unfortunately. Expect to see something on xertonline.com first since we need to first show users more information about XMB prior to doing them, now that the algorithm is stable and proving to be very effective. Then we’ll move to getting it done on Android and then iOS. Hopefully we can tackle Karoo in the process. And this assumes we don’t get other higher priority things pop up and derail our efforts.

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In case people didn’t know this, you can see all of these lines on your Forecast AI chart by clicking on the labels on the legend at the bottom. You’ll then see how your plan implements progressive overload for each individual system (low, high and peak), how high-intensity days are all done on blue form (blue dots at the start of the training), how your weekly hours and availability are honoured and how ultimately your goal is reached by the end.

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